Interview with Sérgio de Carvalho

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An Interview with Sérgio de Carvalho Fabio Akcelrud Durão Published online: 19 May 2015.

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An Interview with Se´rgio de Carvalho Downloaded by [Fabio Durao] at 17:38 31 May 2015

Translated by Lindsay Puente Companhia do Lata˜o is a theatrical group based in the city of Sa˜o Paulo. Its main interest lies in critical thinking on contemporary society; its work includes shows, pedagogical activities, the publishing of Vinte´m magazine as well as a series of artist experiments. The group originated in the staging of Essay to Danton (1996), directed by Se´rgio de Carvalho, a free adaptation of Georg Bu¨chner’s Danton’s Death. For more information (in Portuguese) see Bhttp://www.companhiadolatao.com.br/.

Fabio Akcelrud Dura˜o

Fabio Dura˜o I would like to start by getting straight to the point. Se´rgio de Carvalho None of the ‘where were you born’, ‘tell me about your childhood’ or ‘which is your favourite team’? FD No, none of that! One of the notable characteristics of Companhia do Lata˜o, which you direct, something that makes it stand out from other Brazilian groups, is an intimate relationship between the theory and practice of theatre. Could you say something about this? For example, which points could be leveraged against others and which turned out to be immutable? SC From the beginning the theatrical work of Companhia do Lata˜o has tried to materialise a theoretical scene. The first shows the group presented were ‘rehearsal pieces’, exercises where the actors revealed their theatrical experiments and choices in relation to narrated stories. Even at the risk of metalinguistic exhibitionism, akin to postmodern theatre, we enjoyed exposing the process of formal construction with the intention of discussing the ideology of the representation. Theatrical play was generated from the consciousness that no one fools anyone anymore within the representation. This effort was an attempt at an ironic realism, which would be able to ‘expose the theatre in its theatrical reality’, as Brecht would say. Not surprisingly, we used not just fictional texts

but also theoretical documents, as if the artistic combination were a critical rehearsal. As time passed, it was no longer necessary for the theory to be so evident. It became possible to stimulate this abstraction through very concrete images. Various types of theatrical strategies were experimented with as the group’s interest, on one hand, deepened around the study of Brecht’s dialectic and, on the other, developed into an area of research about the processes of capitalist culture in Brazil. FD Do you believe that theatre is an ideal place to engage in theoretical combat? In literary theory there doesn’t seem to be much space for that; the front line is made up of defenders of a banal concept of difference. This doesn’t differentiate anything but, on the contrary, creates a great homogeneity or a pseudo-politics which politicises everything except that which is political. SC Theory in theatre is always constructed as a relationship with some practical dimension: of dramaturgy, of scene making, of the work of the actors, of its relationship to the public. It evaluates the limits of a past action and prepares a new one. It isn’t always explicitly theoretical, even though we may also write and publish our views in journals and books or present them through reflections by invited intellectuals. From the point of view of methodology, we are in a dialectical camp, used in a very loose way, with a base in Brecht and those who study the possible forms of ideological critique today. What we perceived in our first contact with Brecht was that a dialectic stance should focus not only on the object of the theatrical work, but on the subjects of representation and on the forms of actuation as well. And we observed that it has many forms other than the discursive. Just drawing upon Marxist thought for inspiration already signifies a polemical position, one that attracts plenty of aggressive responses and attempts to denigrate our work, and that poses difficulties for the artistic force of our endeavour. And yet, we are in Brazil. And all of this needs to be approached from a Brazilian angle; that is, from the periphery

Wasafiri Vol. 30, No. 2, June 2015, pp. 47–51 ISSN 0269-0055 print/ISSN 1747-1508 online # 2015 Lindsay Puente http://www.tandfonline.com http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/02690055.2015.1011395

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but never through the recitation of words. For example, we would use a fragment to stimulate a search for an analogous image, gathered from the streets of central Sa˜o Paulo. The actors then represented this observed scene, which should have alluded to the idea under debate. This was during the rehearsals. The result was hardly allegorical. There was very little of the ‘letter’ of Brecht, but much of his ‘spirit’. Immediately we understood that we weren’t interested in the Brechtian style, which in any case should never be confused with the diverse techniques used by the scene-poet: cabaret, narrative choral scenes, Chinese scenes, critical realism, Elizabethan theatre.

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Helena Albergaria. # Companhia do Lata˜o. of capitalism, wherein the cultural formations that are reproduced – the processes of gentrification of culture in Europe and the USA in recent centuries – are done so in a very clumsy manner and sometimes even reversed. Lata˜o, then, is a theatrical group that has theoretical positions grounded in a Brazilian version of Marxism, especially with regard to what can be called the search for social rhythms of forms. A practical consequence of this is that our work becomes more invested in a concept of labour than in the artistic product. What is important to us is a defamiliarisation of the aesthetic relationship – which is obtained through diverse and connected actions – so that one can reflect on the functions of art against capital. FD In relation to this, the origin of Companhia do Lata˜o is connected to the study of the work of Brecht. Why this choice?

FD Could you explain more clearly this approach that does not attempt to recreate the style? SC Brecht is a template we follow, starting from his method of contradictions as applied to theatre. There is no interest in reproducing his results, but in retracing his path in order to move forward from it. In his theatrical vision, each aesthetic category demands its own opposite: realism is based in stylisation, the popular is based in avant-garde experimentation. Beauty is always very carefully handled, but it emerges on stage in order to ‘to give the senses an opportunity to prove themselves capable’, again as Brecht somewhere said. In his themes, the good, old things come in contradiction with newer things. In Brechtian practice, the dialectic is not confined to the stage, it is not contained in the text nor in the scene. It is established in the journey, the relationship between the stage and the audience, which symbolises the relationship between representation and society. It is always in this movement – a negative one – between actors and spectators that other images emerge over the presented image. The artistic work offers itself alongside a task that solicits another task, and that has a consciousness of its own determinations and limits against the commodity form.

SC In 1996 I was directing a show inspired by Georg Bu¨chner’s A Morte de Danton. The play was called Ensaio para Danton because we had already developed an interest in the form of the rehearsal itself, in the juncture between fragments of theory and live scenes (and even realism), in the thematisation of theatre. It was obvious that we needed to study representation as a political issue. I then invited various actors and dramaturges, including Ney Piacentini and Marcio Marciano,1 for a theatrical study of theoretical writings by Brecht called A Compra do Lata˜o [Der Messingkauf]. The actress Helena Albergaria2 was already my companion at this time and soon she joined the group. The theoretical writings of Brecht are a type of dialogical and incomplete reflection which tries to synthesise his theatrical works. Take, for example, the dialogue where, after a presentation of Hamlet, a philosopher discusses with a group of artists the function of the theatrical arts. In this text Brecht composes a clear dialectic between the points of view of the diverse characters who participate in the discussion. When Lata˜o started, we tried to create scenes Golpe. # Companhia do Lata˜o. directly from such an approach to theorising,

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FD How do you explain this bringing together of political preoccupations, experimentation and the procedural character of staging? In other words, would there be a political and theoretical aspect that exists already that precedes the actual show, that is, in the rehearsals and preparation of the actors? SC I think so. The show should be a testimony to the task of learning, which is in movement. When we make contact with a work of Brecht’s, from the beginning we are more interested in the political nuances of the form than in the stated social manifestos. But we understand that one doesn’t exist without the other, as Adorno also seems to note in Generais. # Companhia do Lata˜o. Aesthetic Theory, although without fully understanding the extra-literary complexity of Brecht. Even interest in those processes where the victims of exploitation today, to not take part in art is, in a certain way, to be part of internalise this domination and begin to justify it and adapt the dominant party. The classical critiques of ideology applied themselves to the reification of life. At the same time it is to art are not sufficient. It becomes necessary to have an fundamental, within this dialectic between individual failures understanding of the contemporary forms of what has been and the pressures of abstract forces, to be able to project the called ideology, processes that cannot always be presented best possibilities that were lost. As an external influence, as ‘masks’, ‘false consciousness’ or contact with anti-capitalist social movements that encouraged ‘de-historicisation’. us to find collaborations outside of the commercial system of the arts played a decisive role for us. FD Now let me flirt with the critical notion of a common knowledge, the idea that people already know things, that ‘no FD Within Lata˜o there seems to have been a desire to not one fools anyone’, as you said before. To give an example; restrict yourselves to the production of theatrical works; you asserting that the big corporations only exist to make profits is have published a journal, edited books and also worked in nothing new — it’s something that everyone, in one way or the audio-visual arena. What can you say about this another, already knows. The real work then is to see how relationship between or within or outside of theatre? these existing forms of common knowledge are worked in such a way that they are rendered uncommon, for example, SC Our interest in editing books and journals has two bases. through a transformation of affect (anger, resentment etc) or On one hand, our rehearsal procedures create reflections of by playing with Manichaeisms (fascism or fundamentalism). a more hybrid, unclassifiable nature than those produced in the university. An intellectual invited for a debate will have SC In the theatre, simply to demystify an idea is not sufficient. to understand the conditions of a politicised – and The conventional strategy of clarification or illumination was impassioned – theatrical group when dealing with these already criticised by Brecht at a time when ‘nothing else topics. That person’s attitude will differ from ours because of needs to be unmasked’. Denaturalisation, however, as an their professorial attitude. This doesn’t arise simply because anti-ideological procedure, gains ground if amplified beyond of their knowledge of theory, and we are interested in the the level of the themes of consciousness, pushing towards possibility of this different posture when we publish — as, for those subtle forms of vital damage and of our adaption to example, in an interview with an intellectual. In other words, we attempt to register our learning experience because this them — including through theatre itself as a part of culture. experience is faced with strong opposition from those who The politicisation of the work of Lata˜o began in that fashion; prefer to keep the specialised world for the producers of that is, when we began to criticise the dominant imaginary in culture. The many accusations made against us concerning ourselves, when we began to discuss not only dominant ideas the false idea of an ‘anachronistic Marxism’, these can only but also their practical import. We paid particular attention to be refuted with our continued work and its undeniable the concrete situation of a group of artists which no longer complexity — allied to a capacity to have a dialogue with conforms to the specialised and parasitic conditions of the all sorts of people. producers of culture. It became crucial, then, to face the cultural ideology that crosses with our work and to research FD How has the company managed to survive since 1997 with more egalitarian forms of collaboration and creation. The so many diverse activities? theatrical rehearsal became at Lata˜o a place of practical study of subjects capable of awakening the imagination to collective action. The stimulus to the utopic imagination brings together SC It is a semi-professional survival, from a productive point the raw analysis of current capitalist images, so that nothing of view. All the members of the group also have parallel activities as professors or independent artists. Some of them, (or very little) ‘needs to be unmasked’. There is especially

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exceptions to this, above all in the group theatre movement of the city of Sa˜o Paulo, which has a slightly different history from the rest of the country due to better political organisation in the 1990s. But even here, the tendency towards aestheticism is disseminated through a late incorporation of a post-modern imaginary, which is spreading widely across schools of theatre. FD Would it be possible to talk a bit more about this imaginary? How is it characterised, in your opinion? What are its fundamental traits and determinants?

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Opera. # Companhia do Lata˜o. like myself, have a parallel position in a public university. This almost amateur condition (combined with the high aesthetic quality that we strive to maintain), however, is what allows us to avoid the impositions of excessive productivity, directed only at cultural circulation. FD Could you elaborate more on this? In what way do you find this semi-professionalism a strength or a limitation? If, on one side there is a rejection of commercialisation, on the other there must exist operational difficulties as well — things that become impossible without this professionalisation, right? SC The key is the control of productive resources and to know how to work with real conditions, those that always demand a real-time analysis of the group. Artistic quality can be generated in many different ways and without many resources as well. What is important is to fight against the logic of easy effects and easy results. In order to maintain the minimum conditions for the work (a rehearsal space, basic remuneration for the staff, space for the equipment), we use available public resources for the maintenance of groups like ours, resisting government support (which is always sparse and inconsistent) in order to provide continuity to our work. This allows us to choose how we will participate in the theatrical system, diminishing the need to sell our shows at festivals and institutions. On another front, we dedicate a portion of our time to volunteer work, presentations or workshops in schools, in settlements of landless workers, in theatres of the periphery, in collaborations with politicised groups which do not have economic conditions for receiving us. FD How do you see the contemporary theatre scene in Brazil? SC Like everything else in the country, theatre has matured as a capitalist organisation, with more resources, more cultural institutions mediating the work, more professionalisation of relationships, more festivals. On the same page, there has been greater de-politicisation. The old boulevard theatre still follows its comedic conventions, but the new issue is the conservative wave of alternative and experimental theatre that now has no shame in its cultural elitism. There are important

SC The multiplication of art schools, with their strategy of sectored teaching of theatrical techniques, together with the prevailing and widelyheld belief in the end of ‘great narratives’ have contributed to the spread of various neo-aesthetic tendencies. To cite a few: the ‘body performance’, where the stage is used to exhibit the ideology of ‘bodily presence’, giving value to everything that denies fictional alterity to the historic consciousness and to the imagination (mutilation, excrement, physical risk etc); or the plastic-allegoric scene, where the scenographer creates abstract commentary (using volumes of water falls, plastics surrounding the actors etc). In dramaturgy the monologue dominates, even when it is disguised in a polyphonic form (which is always cheap). The discourse in theatre assumes the air of a personal testimony, with a lyrical tone, falling short of any subjective interaction, interested in a diffuse portrait of the ‘incommunicability in the great metropolises’ while small accidents reveal the yearning for a supposed sense of humanity. These scenic tendencies are not new, but they continue to be strong. They are always presented as indices of what is ‘contemporary in art’, as a subtle eulogy to diversified consumption. FD Is there an influence of the work of Augusto Boal3 in the group? SC There is, indirectly. Boal is the most important Brazilian model for a work that combines art, pedagogy and critical reflection, while attempting to dislocate the social space of theatre and to think of culture as a right attached to free time. As incredible as it seems, the work of Boal is still little studied and discussed in Brazil. Lately, I have been collaborating with his family4 in the sense of taking care of his archive and showing the force and current utility of his practice as a project of critical dialectical theatre (that is, beyond whatever dualistic reduction of the concept of the Theatre of the Oppressed that is made by so many people). It is still necessary to read his works carefully so that we can understand his place in history and so that his work does not become formulaic. FD What are, in your opinion, the most important national dramaturgical influences on the group?

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SC The influences are more literary than dramatic. Although I have studied the work of writers who are dedicated to theatre, like Oswald de Andrade and Ma´rio de Andrade (not relatives), and though we have used fragments of dramaturges like Jorge Andrade (idem!) and Oduvaldo Vianna Filho, the most decisive influences are of writers and intellectuals like Machado de Assis, Se´rgio Buarque de Holanda, Chico de Oliveira, Roberto Schwarz, Paulo Arantes and Jose´ Antonio Pasta.5

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FD How would you situate Companhia do Lata˜o within the historical context of Brazilian theatre?

Assembleia pb 2. # Companhia do Lata˜o.

SC Companhia do Lata˜o came about in the 1990s, at a moment when almost nothing remained of the big leftist theatre movement of the 1960s. After twenty years of dictatorship, after the exile and scattering of so many artists, after the liberal-conservative flood of the Reagan and Thatcher eras that influenced the direction of policy making in the country, after the international spread of neo-aestheticism that tried to whitewash our attempts at a more critical modernist theatre, there remained a piece of scorched earth with regard to theatre that is interested in politics, a theatre that opposes commodity culture. Little by little, Lata˜o has taken on an important role in two ways: it has influenced the appearance of young politicised groups and it has established connections with past artists who had become isolated. At the same time it revisits some of the most important Brazilian intellectuals of theatre. And it maintains contact with social movements like the Movimento dos Trabalhadores Sem-Terra (MST),6 helping to form cultural action groups within the movement. Beyond this, it participates in the public mobilisations that have sculpted the law of support for theatrical research in the city of Sa˜o Paulo. In brief, against an era of intense commercialisation, it is one of a few artistic collectives in the country that continues to find that capitalism is not the solution but a problem which must be faced. And that just to be aware of this is not enough, a transformative process is needed. FD For the foreign reading public, who are not familiar with the work of Grupo de Lata˜o, I think it would be interesting if we could talk about a particular production. Is there one you consider particularly representative? ´ pera dos Vivos, produced in 2010 SC I think that the show O and still in repertoire, is the most representative work of Lata˜o. It is a montage of four hours, done in four parts: 1. A theatrical group’s rehearsal of a peasant play, just before the military coup in Brazil in 1964.

2. A film about a banker who finances the coup and supports leftist culture all at the same time. 3. A show in homage to a protest singer who spent years in a coma and returned to activity at the height of the pop song, at the end of the 1960s. 4. A recording of a made-for-TV melodrama about the 1960s which is happening now, in the early 2000s. It is the spectator who establishes the historical relationship between these parts and evaluates the possible differences in historical consciousnesses. The general theme is the influence of the relations of labour in the vision of art and culture, and the diverse slippages between thought and practice. In the last act, it is as if commodity fetishism itself enters the scene. ´ pera dos vivos, after years of the group’s existence, was O born as a reflection on the difficulties of politicised art in Brazil, on ourselves against our own time.

Notes 1 Well known actor and director respectively. 2 Worked in the films Hard Labour (2011) and When I was alive (2014) among others. 3 Augusto Boal (1931–2009) theatre director, writer and politician. He was the founder of the Theatre of the Oppressed, a form of drama meant to entertain and educate the poor. 4 Boal died on 2 May 2009. 5 Oswald de Andrade (1890–1954): leading modernist writer; Ma´rio de Andrade (1893–1945): leading modernist writer; Jorge Andrade (1922–1984): playwright; Oduvaldo Vianna Filho (1936–1974): actor, director, playwright; Machado de Assis (1839–1908): most important nineteenth-century writer; Se´rgio Buarque de Holanda (1902–1982): historian; Franciso de Oliveira (1933–): sociologist; Roberto Schwarz (1938–): literary critic; Paulo Arantes (1942–): social philosopher; Jose´ Antonio Pasta: literary critic. 6 Social movement for land reform, founded in 1984 and active in occupying unproductive land.